On 1/2/2020 3:23 PM, Ken Norton wrote:
Ornament Moose wrote:
It's this idea that PS is somehow just a more powerful, but mysterious and
dangerous, step up from LR that leads to a
lot on confusion and frustration. They use fundamentally different paradigms to
approach image editing. Anyone
approaching PS as though it's just LR on steroids is likely to be frustrated
and miss out on the breadth of capabilities.
EXACTLY!
And this is precisely why I think you're hopelessly stuck in the old,
obsolete paradigm. The thinking or approach of singular, stand-alone
images with just some simple means of image organization (directories,
by date or subject) is the old buggy-whip paradigm of image management
and editing. PS is an awesome tool for a single image or composite.
Conflation alert! How is it that PS may somehow only be used with one model of
image management?
As a tool for handling a multi-image project, it is hopeless and
completely pudgy.
How is PS pudgy? Yes, it's worse than hopeless as an image manager - because it
isn't one.
I use LR's Gallery and Map modes for image management, from one angle, and FastStone from another. Yes, my underlying
structure is by camera model and date, but in the LR catalog, I have GPS, Keywords, Collections, Smart Collections and
metadata to look at them from other angles, slice and dice, as your metaphor might have it. :-)
I do multi-image projects all the time. A couple of clicks, and I can see all the images from Ireland in 2019. A couple
more, and I can see all the photos that have been final prepped for that web gallery.
My photos from Bhutan, 2017 are heavily keyworded. I somehow did my 563 photo Gallery from that trip without much
trouble, with no personal injury and am very pleased with the Gallery.
It's no different than a house. A house has a
bedroom which is FANTASTIC for sleeping, a kitchen which is FANTASTIC
for cooking, a bathroom which is FANTASTIC for reading and catching up
on facebook, and closets for storage of clothes so they don't hung on
the exercise bike or treadmill. PS is like that kitchen, which is
where you want to do all your cooking and culinary artistry, but it's
not the right place for sleeping, pooping and hanging clothes up.
People, and I think Moose is somewhat guilty, try to use PS for things
which it is very poorly designed.
I guess I still don't understand. Perhaps, using your metaphor, all I'm doing is replacing a kitchen that doesn't work
for me. Go to develop Module, adjust WB and exposure sliders just as in ACR, press CTRL-E, and I've been magically
transported from that crappy little kitchen into my wonderful Kitchen.
Save my work as a PSD and a web size JPEG. Like magic, they are right there in
the LR catalog.
However, and here is why it DOES work for Moose. If you are very
limited in how much you shoot,
Yeah, only 12,000 photos in 2019. I must hang my head.
or aren't putting together a set of
images that all have to match, or have some fantastic mechanism for
sorting, grading, and managing that body of work, then PS will work
for you. But it's a tool which is very poorly adapted to anything
other than being a really good set of kitchen knives.
The beat goes on. Why do you imagine I don't use the LR Catalog tools?
People like Moose succeed because of the years and years of experience as well
as
the ability to "engineer" solutions to various editing problems.
I'm going to call that a compliment. :-)
The very soup to nuts aspect of Lightroom is a complete game-changer.
I saw that the very moment I trialed that beta release and got hooked
immediately. Import the images from whatever sources, sort, grade,
select, edit, output. It's all right there. It's only a very rare
image or project that requires me to deep dive into PS to accomplish
something. (like putting my face in the window of an old boat). But
THAT is not image management, it's image editing.
Image management vs. image editing.
Is there an echo in here? You've said that, and said it, and will shortly say it again. I don't disagree, in the least.
A hammer is not a screwdriver. But that doesn't make all screwdrivers equal.
I enjoy having the ability to go to a spot on a map and pull up every
picture taken there, regardless of when.
Exactly what I've praised about LR Map Mode, many times. It is, to use your
term, a game changer. I use it all the time.
(My catalogs are currently split into years, so I'm limited to single year
queries).
When I read your post about all that, it made me slightly ill. Multiple drives, mixed and matched with multiple
computers, all to cripple the Catalogs sounded like madness to me. I visit, and photograph, multiple places multiple
times over different years. Artificially making it impossible to see all at once would make me crazy. Didn't Dante write
about that circle of Hell?
I enjoy having the ability to pull up every image taken of a subject (provided
I keyworded it correctly).
I admit it, keywording is my weakness. Where's that unpaid intern?
I enjoy having that ability to create
independent versions of a given image with completely different edits
for completely different purposes--all non-destructive
I don't get all the noise about non-destructive editing. A Raw file is, by definition uneditable. If I edit, the changes
can't, no way, no how, be saved back over the Raw original.
, and taking up minimal space, unlike PS files that have 25 different layers on
them.
To me, that's a choice with important consequences. A PSD file is larger. OTOH, it carries in it clear info on the way I
created it - AND - I can accurately modify it later only as to some aspects, without affecting others. As to your
exaggeration, ;-) , sure, I have done the occasional 25 layer, or more, edit, although that's almost always to make one
of my roll-overs of multiple steps and/or alternatives.
On the way, or once done, I regularly combine certain types of layers, even have Actions for naming the combos. I don't
really know, but imagine my average finished PSD may have 3-4 layers. BUT, storage is dirt cheap. Compared to the time
spent creating them, the space to store my photos is nothing. My current 6TB image drive and its B-U twin are about 2/3
full. I'm good.
And the ability to output to jpeg for sharing or to the printer with
significant automatic color management, for one or more images.
I don't understand what this means. I make thousands of JPEGs for the web, generally with some "re-sharpening" after
downsampling. (Yes, not uncommonly with different amounts or other adjustments applied selectively using masks, and
saved as small PSDs. Highlight problems in the conversion from 16 bit high gamut RGB to 8 bit sRGB do occur.)
I print from the full size PSD, and let the print driver handle color and sizing. I don't do much printing. I don't sell
them, and already have way more than enough around the house.
PS is a clutz environment for anything other than cooking.
When have I ever disagreed with this? It's a kitchen, period. But oh so much better than the kitchen in LR. LR's kitchen
is like those AirBnB kitchens, where the right pan is either missing or a non-stick with the coating peeling off and no
lid that fits, an important tool is missing and only one of the knives is sharp enough to commit murder with, maybe, if
you are really strong, but slicing an onion leads to mush.
You can't easily work two or more images simultaneously. You can't easily
COMPARE two or more images simultaneously. Etc. Etc.
Here, I'm going to disagree, over minutiae of definition. LR, and many other manager/editors, have multiple images next
to each other modes. I have never much liked or used them, but that's just me. OTOH, PS also allows that kind of
comparison. The hitch is that all have to be open in PS, but then you can sync, so they all move together. I can't
remember the last time I did that, either.
OTTH, once I've flipped through them in LR or FS, and am down to 2 or 3, I will often open them in PS and copy them into
one as layers. There is just NOTHING like flipping layers on and off to clarify every little difference. No back and
forth eye movement.
Then, of course, I often combine parts of the different originals into a final version, better than any one. In fact, I
often shoot with this intent.
To do ANYTHING other than cooking, you need some form of image management
method.
Echo, echo, echo . . .
It might be as simple as hard-drive directory structure, or Adobe Bridge,
or some other equivalent open-source nightmare.
Yup. I feel I have the best of both worlds. My directory structure is simple and robust. If I want to browse it that
way, I often use FastStone. The name says it, it's just faster, nimbler than LR. To view sliced other ways, LR. Both are
generally open all the time. It's not either-or. I never did "get" Adobe Bridge; clumsy, with no redeeming qualities.
The fact that Moose is successful using PS probably should be
considered a one-off thing. There are a handful of people who choose
not to update their own paradigm and will ride out the PS thing until
they croak.
Gobbledygook! You are again assuming that anyone who edits in PS doesn't use
proper image management.
But it's certainly not a paradigm that I would push anybody to who has yet to
adopt one.
Ah, yes, back to what started this thread. Look at the subject line. Look at the original content. MikeG, a decades long
PS user, balked at the subscription model, and has been using PS6 all this time. He has now subscribed, and was asking
for a simple list/guide to the changes since PS6, to help him catch up. (Not that simple, unfortunately.)
How does that lead to a rant about how newbies should limit their editing
skills to what the LR develop module will do?
PS is a awesome program and gives you the absolute best set of kitchen
knives there are. But sometimes you just want to sit on the sofa and
enjoy a glass of wine.
Metaphor not workie for me. There's cooking and there's lounging. How does one accomplish what the other does?
(Actually, cooking is a great relaxation for me. Get me started on the 1:45 making of my Descanso Stir-Fry, and I might
as well be meditating - but with the joy of wonderful food at the end.)
PS will positively drive you batty if you try to use it for anything other than
cooking.
With the one exception about careful comparison of near identical photos above, I couldn't agree more. But then, I don't
know why you insist that the use of PS must mean primitive image management. (Oh, wait, that's also what I said in my
first sentence.)
Deep Edition Moose
--
What if the Hokey Pokey *IS* what it's all about?
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