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Re: [OM] (OT) G12

Subject: Re: [OM] (OT) G12
From: JOHN DUGGAN <john.duggan10@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:40:17 +0100 (BST)
Moose, 
           Whilst you lose me sometimes I find your comments thought provoking. 
You raise valid points and argue your case logically. I do not always agree 
with 
your conclusions BUT you stop me from taking statements for granted. I value 
these contributions.
 Regards
John Duggan,
Wales, UK



----- Original Message ----
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Olympus Camera Discussion <olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, 26 October, 2010 5:15:46
Subject: Re: [OM] (OT) G12

On 10/24/2010 3:32 PM, John Hudson wrote:
> As to a lens's optical quality and the reference to "high end Zuiko lenses" I 
>was infering a consideration of the "negative" from which a large hard copy 
>print could be made. I think it can be safely assumed that a negative created 
>with say these Zuiko film camera lenses for example ..  MIJ 50 / f1.8, 85 / 
>f2, 
>and 90 / f2 ......would, all other things being equal and favourable, generate 
>a 
>sharp large hard copy print second to none.

I'm going to leave aside silly issues like what you mean by a large print and 
whether you might limit the "second to 

none" part to similar or smaller film/sensor formats. "all other things being 
equal and favourable ", a 4x6 foot print 

from 8x10 film is going to show more detail than a comparable print from 35mm 
film, no matter what.

More practically, I have seen Bob's large prints from 35 mm film (OM), 4/3 
sensor (E-1) and 24x36 mm sensor (D3). I can 

say pretty unequivocally that the D3 prints are the sharpest, cleanest, most 
precise, whatever term(s) apply.

> Likewise with most, if not all, latter day Leica lenses. With digital there 
> is 
>obviously no film "negative". The comparable image storage medium is a digital 
>file created by the camera's sensor generated by the light entering the camera 
>through the lens. What is common here is the "light entering the camera 
>through 
>the lens". What is different is the medium on which the latent image is stored.
>
> What interests me, and what provoked my original question / observation, is 
> the 
>relative contribution provided by the camera lens to the generation of the 
>latent image.

Although that wasn't how I understood your original question, I did answer it 
as 
best I could. Saying that the G12 lens 

outperforms the sensor system, particularly in the realm you mention of 
sharpness. We have a situation here that 

sometimes happens, where sensor alone is changed, with the same lens, in a 
fixed 
lens digicam. Dpreview, in their G11/12 

reviews, states and shows examples that the same lens resolves slightly more 
detail on the 14 MP G10 than the 10 MP G11/12.

Pretty definitive, the case of the specific camera you talk about.

> On a side by side comparison of two large hard copy prints, one generated by 
> a 
>"high end" Zuiko film camera lens and one generated by a lens on the G12, 
>which 
>one would be an obljectively  judged better print [colour rendition, 
>sharpness, 
>etc, etc].

I don't think this is a definitively, quantitatively answerable question. If 
you 
are talking only sharpness/detail, I 

suspect, but am not sure, that "all other things being equal and favourable .", 
using proper film and a good copy of a 

Zuiko like the 50/2, that the film print might well beat out the G12 print.

To even start to get a meaningful answer, as opposed to tossing about 
generalities, you would need to take the same 

shots with both at the same time and place. Then there are sooooo many 
variables 
twixt shot and print. Is the film shot 

to be wet printed by a master printer? Is the film to be scanned, then both are 
to be post processed and printed by a 

master digital printer? The film results simply won't look the same.

Then, who's to do the judging?

> In combination, if the G12's lens AND sensor generate a superior print is 
> that 
>superiority more attributable to the optical quality of the lens or to the 
>technology of the sensor? If this is so, what is the relative contribution of 
>each of the lens and the sensor?

I hope I've already answered that above. The mix will differ with different 
cameras.

> If the film camera lens image is superior, is there a way in which the 
> optical 
>quality of the lens can be compared against that of the digital camera ?

Sure. Take the G12 apart and test both lenses on an optical bench, then adjust 
the results to the same final image size.

> Hopefully, the above line of thinking and enqury makes sense.

Not that much, frankly. See below.

> For someone who was brought up believing that the quality of the lens optics 
>was paramount it is challenging to redirect that thinking into believing that 
>the quality and technical superiority of the sensor can also make a 
>significant 
>contribution to ultimate hard copy image quality.

It's not that simple. Put a crappy lens in from of a good sensor or good film, 
and you get poor resolution/sharpness. 

That is the exact point of the Holga, Diana and other cameras and of pinhole 
photography.

Put a great lens in the world on an early DSLR and ultimate sharpness will be 
sensor limited. Still, other IQ aspects 

may go the other way. Put it on a 24 MP DSLR, and you may find lens 
imperfections that weren't obvious on film. Folks 

like AG are still using E-1s for their color rendition and other qualities 
other 
than resolution.

The truth is that the latest sensor systems, even APS size, simply outperform 
35mm film in the area of resolution of detail.

Your particular choice of camera for this discussion seems odd to me. 35 mm 
film 
has an active image area of 24x36 mm, 

864 cm². The G11 sensor is 7.6 x 5.7 mm, 0.43 cm². How is it meaningful to 
compare them?

What you can get from 5.7x7.6 mm film (About half a 110 format frame.) will be 
junk in a large print, compared to 35 mm 

file. In this case, the sensor is greatly outperforming  film, on a comparable 
basis. The lens requirements are very 

different, too. The digilens needs to resolve much finer detail on the sensor, 
but over a much smaller area.

> On the assumption that this redirection of thought is necessary

In the case of interchangeable lens cameras, perhaps it is. For fixed lens 
cameras like the G11, it seems to me to make 

no sense. the camera is, in effect, a black box, and should simply be judged by 
what comes out of it against other 

cameras. It shouldn't matter which parts of it's internal parts and processing 
create the output, as there is no way to 

change them.

>   how much of that paramountcy should be directed towards the sensor and 
>whether this should be at the expense of accepting a degredation in the 
>quality 
>of the optical glass used to manufacture the lens?

Now I think you are getting off into the edges of silly land. In the case if 
interchangeable lens cameras, that need not 

be a trade-off, if you can afford a good lens on a good body, or may be an 
personal trade-off  depending on available 

funds and the primacy of needs in other areas.

In the case of fixed lens cameras, those decisions have already been made, and 
your choice need only look at results.

And what's this about "accepting a degredation in the quality of the optical 
glass used to manufacture the lens? "? High 

end compact cameras from the major makers use the same optical technology in 
those lenses as in their top DSLR lenses. 

It's not all about glass, as mechanical sophistication, precision, reliability 
and many other factors are involved in 

determining and maintaining  optical performance.

But lets talk expensive optical glass. Lets assume the glass for a particular 
element in a lens for 35 mm costs $100. 

Just as the reduction in linear dimensions of about 22% becomes a reduction in 
area of 95%, it becomes a reduction in 

volume of a lens element of 99%. The cost of glass for the same element in the 
same lens formula, scaled down for the 

small sensor of a G12, is about $1.10.

Hm. Perhaps the difference between $.50 and $1.00 in the cost of a $500 camera 
may be a smaller factor than the 

difference between $50 and $100 in the cost of a $1000 lens?

A final comment about digital sensor systems. I often carry both a 12 MP G11 
and 
a 12.7 MP 5D. If you believe in simple 

stats, there should be little difference in IQ between them. Yet all pixels are 
not created equal. The G11 images are 

amazingly good, but even at base ISO of 80 show noise, whereas the 5D doesn't 
have as much noise 'til maybe ISO 800. The 

5D also has better dynamic range and better 'per pixel sharpness', clearer 
demarcation between pixels along an edge.

The G11 also has some odd little artifacts viewed at 100%. They aren't visible 
at small to medium print sizes, but are 

bound to show up eventually as print size increases. They are one reason I'm 
not 
sure about the G11 vs Zuiko on film in 

large prints question.

Moose
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