That would apply if the aforementioned Democracy was in fact a Democracy.
And remember, we are talking about loyalty to our representatives, who are
suppose to represent us, they deserve no loyalty if they are in the office
but not doing the job they are entrusted with and do not work to forward our
Constitution and Bill of Rights, which was written for We The People, not
for the Corporate and Banking interests.
We each have a right to tell OUR REPRESENTATIVES what we want them to do,
when they do something different or not in line with what they have been
elected to do, they may hold the office, but they are no longer
representative of the government, which is suppose to be We The People.
Otherwise, that is not just a privilege, it is our responsibility.
If they do the opposite of what they were elected to do, if they act in
direct opposition to those documents which we hold as being what makes us a
country, than that is treason, and again, why should anyone give loyalty to
a traitor?
No one has talked about Opting out though some have left the country, they
are possibly, no longer citizens, burdened with the responsibilities of
being the government.
I believe are right, revolutionaries usually go in exactallly the opposite
direction of what was revolted on, they aren't known for just fixing what
was revolting.
Yes, those of us that speak up loudly want to use paper and PEN to vote
with, as they can be verified. As Stalin stated, it isn't who votes, it is
who counts the votes.
My Government, in it's lingo of saying it is exporting Democracy brings this
right back to one of my earlier statements. Call something what ever you
will, but a Jaguar symbol on a GEO Metro doesn't make it a Jaguar, and if
you look at what my country is doing and check the definitions closely of
Nationalist, Imperialist, Fascist and Democracy, Democracy isn't what we as
a nation are doing. And I owe no loyalty to anyone that is making my nation
something other than a democracy that supports our Constitution and Bill of
Rights as they were written and as they were intended for all men.
I am also aware that these men export the image of All Americans being
behind them, we are not, in fact the vast majority are not, how could a
nation that had a 60% disapproval rating of their sitting president, elect
him, have 5 states with questionable election results and activities and no
recounts happen be considered as being run by representatives of the people.
And there we are back again to the mandatory electronic voting machines that
have no paper trail and election officials that wouldn't ensure recounts
were done in the face of National party Lawyers opposition.
You are aware that the recount, as overseen by Media organizations, for the
2000 election were suppose to be released on 9/11/01 and that when they were
finally release (just after invading Iraq) that it showed Gore won, but who
give a shit, we were told, we're already in a war.
Welcome to what has become the be all do all of that which claims to be a
democracy, perpetual warfare in support of corporate enterprises. Those who
are responsible for this, I owe them no Loyalty. Just because they are in
Office, if I follow them right or wrong because they represent my country,
at the very least is nationalistic, definitely not patriotic.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: olympus-owner@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:olympus-owner@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Andrew Fildes
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:53 AM
To: olympus@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [OM] Re: lighting again Re: Re: Communications [was lighting]
On 16/03/2007, at 6:05 PM, Scott Peden wrote:
> Loyalty to my country remains, even if I will not be loyal to my
> government
> when they are not doing what they are suppose to do, representing
> us, the
> people who are suppose to be the government.
The point remains - if you are a democracy, the distinction between
country and government is a false and dangerous distinction. And
again, why do you have the right to decide that they aren't doing
their job. Is it not possible that you are wrong? You can't just opt
out - democracy does not work like that except for revolutionaries
and despite your history, you really, really don't like those.
> Half the state was using unverifiable electronic hack able
> by High school kid voting machines, the ones that started making a
> visible
> mess and laughing stock out of our elections in 2000 most notably.
Indeed. And it's worse than that. Here's a few ideas.
In Oz we use paper and pencil. Strangely, that's quite hard to alter!
Booths are in just about every Primary School so you don't need to go
far.
Elections are always on a Saturday - not a working day for most.
Attendance at a booth to get your name crossed off is compulsory
although you are quite welcome to spoil your ballot.
Finally, voting is preferential - you vote in order of preference and
the votes for the minor candidates are distributed to your second or
higher preferences as necessary. It's complex but it works.
Oh and all voting is monitored and conducted by an independent
federal authority.
Any of that address your problems?
And did I forget that spending is limited, basic funds for election
purposes are provided by that same authority and all donations over
$1000 must be declared. None of this getting into office beholden to
major financial backers - that's just plain silly.
Having been brought up in the British 'first past the post' system, I
like what we do here.
All that said, we've still had some cretins in high office and I'll
be very glad to see the back of the present incumbent leader. For
some reason that eludes me, people keep voting for him and that's the
point.
>
> I suggest, if one closely and impartially looks at who/what is
> running the
> USA, and looks at it's actions, not the labels attached to it, that
> one
> would be hard pressed to call it a Democracy, much less a
> representative
> Democracy, if you also had to honestly and in the same light, look
> at the
> definitions of Imperialism, Fascism and Nationalism.
No, look at the actions of those systems. You have what seems to be a
compromised democracy but all of them are compromised to some extent
as there is no way that you can build a perfect system. Plato
objected to democracy on the ground that the wrong people got elected
for the wrong reasons - they were charismatic speakers. Nothing much
has changed in the last 2.5 thousand years.
But I do feel compelled to ask when you are going to stop trying to
export democracy and consider importing it.
Andrew Fildes
afildes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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