Anybody who promises miracles with just one supplement, and has a financial
interest in peddling that supplement, is a snake-oil statement, regardless of
how many PhDs and Nobel prizes he might have.
Cheers,
Nathan
Nathan Wajsman
Alicante, Spain
http://www.frozenlight.eu
http://www.greatpix.eu
PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws
Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/
YNWA
On Apr 29, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Chuck Norcutt wrote:
> Brian, we don't agree because our definitions of "science" don't seem to
> mesh. I'm not talking about Esselstyn here. Esselstyn has at least
> published a paper in 1995 describing his research
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065>
> Here are the results from the horse's mouth:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> RESULTS:
> Of the 22 participants, 5 dropped out within 2 years, and 17 maintained
> the diet, 11 of whom completed a mean of 5.5 years of follow-up. All 11
> of these participants reduced their cholesterol level from a mean
> baseline of 246 mg/dL (6.36 mmol/L) to below 150 mg/dL (3.88 mmol/L).
> Lesion analysis by percent stenosis showed that of 25 lesions, 11
> regressed and 14 remained stable. Mean arterial stenosis decreased from
> 53.4% to 46.2% (estimated decrease = 7%; 95% confidence interval [CI],
> 3.3 to 10.7, P < .05). Analysis by minimal lumen diameter of 25 lesions
> found that 6 regressed, 14 remained stable, and 5 progressed. Mean lumen
> diameter increased from 1.3 mm to 1.4 mm (estimated increase = 0.08 mm;
> 95% CI, -0.06 to 0.22, P = NS). Disease was clinically arrested in all
> 11 participants, and none had new infarctions. Among the 11 remaining
> patients after 10 years, six continued the diet and had no further
> coronary events, whereas the five dropouts who resumed their prestudy
> diet reported 10 coronary events.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not impressed with the results since they indicate that it's very
> difficult to adhere to this diet. Despite having Esselstyn himself
> supervising their progress only 50% stuck with it for 5.5 years. Six
> went as long as 10 years. As I said before, I wouldn't do this even if
> the results of this small study have broader applicability. My other
> concern is that Esselstyn is totally focused on heart disease. I'm more
> focused on staying alive and many studies show that low cholesterol
> causes an increase in all-cause mortality.
>
> I wondered how you had come up with the name of Malcolm Kendrick in
> association with Esselstyn. Unlike you, I see Kendrick as one of my
> heros and not a dangerous person. Searching for the name pair on Google
> I found a response from you on Kendrick's web site. You commented to
> Kendrick that "Even a “moderate” intake of fat is lethal, and meat has a
> similar effect."
>
> That was in response to his reporting of the Norwegian HUNT 2 study
> <http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2753.2011.01767.x/pdf>
> covering
> over 52,000 Norwegians which clearly shows, if anything, that
> cholesterol is protective for all-cause mortality and even for CVD with
> the exception of a slight increase (for men only) at the highest end of
> the range. Kendrick provided you with additional contravening evidence
> and asked how you could explain it. Apparently you couldn't except by
> ignoring it. If Esselstyn's diet works against heart disease then
> that's great for those who choose to follow it. But that's hardly proof
> that the rest of the world's diet is poison or that Esselstyn's patients
> will live longer than those who don't follow it. It's now 18 years past
> the publication of his 22 patient study. These folks were elderly when
> the study began. Most of them have probably died by now. Where is the
> new paper that proves these folks also beat the odds on cancer,
> infectious disease, dementia, diabetes, etc. etc. Perhaps its absence
> is telling?
>
> As for Dr. Joe Prendergast, he has apparently never published a
> scientific paper describing his work. At least I can't find one at Pub
> Med <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/> Now why is that? Science
> does not get disseminated through the popular press. It needs to be
> more rigorous than that.
>
> Chuck Norcutt
>
>
> On 4/29/2013 9:19 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
>> Chuck wrote
>>> Message: 18
>>
>>> Rather that try to work through all of this again I decided to do a
>>> Google search for criticisms of Esselstyn's work. My first hit was even
>>> more than that, a criticism of a movie called ?Forks Over Knives? which
>>> features not only Esselstyn's work but also several other vegan promoters.
>>> <http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a
>>> -review-and -critique/>
>>>
>>> I haven't read the entire thing (it's huge and takes a long time to
>>> load) but it's pretty clear from the critique that, at least what's
>>> presented in the movie, is pretty *selective* science... you just ignore
>>> the inconvenient bits that disagree with your hypothesis. I'd had enough
>>> after about 10 pages and there are very many more than that.
>>>
>>> Chuck Norcutt
>>
>> I'm sorry, if my last post (below) which I spent more than an hour over to
>> summarise in the concise form the science and how people got there isn't
>> good enough, then so be it. I'm not perfect - but I'm not doing it again.
>>
>> It's easy to find nay-sayers on the internet; one of the worst I found is a
>> so-
>> called Dr. Malcolm Kendrick.
>>
>> I'm convinced the science is sound, and I do not believe that Prendergast
>> and Esselstyn are liars.
>>
>> To summarise the science as simply as I can, it is this:
>>
>> It is proven that if you have an adequate supply of L-argenine, and
>> preferably also L-citrulline, in your diet, you will never get the usual
>> kinds of
>> heart attack, angina, or cerebral stroke. These two amino acids will prevent
>> athersclerosis from developing. If you are found to already have
>> athersclerosis, there is a good chance they can remove it.
>>
>> "Adequate" depends on whether or not you follow a vegan diet. If you do,
>> you should get the above benefits without supplementary supply.
>> Alternatively, if you eat a "normal" western civilisation diet the chances
>> are
>> (25 : 75 ) that you will benefit from supplementary supply to avoid those
>> conditions.
>> Finally, because L-argenine and L-citrulline cause the creation in arteries
>> of
>> nitric oxide gas which defends against atherosclerosis, for the people whose
>> health is so protected, heart by-pass operations, stents, statins,
>> measurement of cholesterol etc etc become redundant and un-necessary
>> operations. For about 25% of the population this means avoidance of
>> premature death and/or severe incapacity.
>>
>> Having discovered Prendergast, I have given up the vegan diet and take
>> one or more capsules of L-argenine per day. It worked for him and his 5,000
>> diabetic patients over a 16 year period, so it should work for me.
>>
>>>
>>> On 4/27/2013 2:20 PM, Brian Swale wrote:
>>>> With replies from Charlie and Chuck, maybe this ought to be my last
>>>> posting on this topic for a while.
>>>>
>>>> At the outset, I do not believe that, as Nathan put it, what Drs
>>>> Prendergast and Esselstyn are disseminating, is snake oil.
>>>>
>>>> Far from it. This is all serious, science and evidence-based,
>>>> information which can be used simply by anybody to prevent / minimise
>>>> premature death from athersclerosis and considerable human suffering
>>>> where athersclerosis has maimed but not yet killed outright.
>>>>
>>>> The messages from Drs Esselstyn and Prendergast contain very similar
>>>> material, but each arrived at where they are by different routes.
>>>>
>>>> I believe that each of these men is energised by the ulterior motive of
>>>> alleviating and avoiding where possible, human suffering through
>>>> athersclerosis in its various forms, and have chosen two vehicles to
>>>> make the basis of their findings available to us all.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie confirmed what I thought all along, having read Esselstyn's book
>>>> and attentively listened to and watch Prendergast's short videos.
>>>>
>>>> This is that myocardial infarction (hope I have the spelling correct),
>>>> often the phase of heart disease before death ensues, is caused by the
>>>> rupture of a lump of plaque on the inside of an artery. The causes the
>>>> body to create a blood CLOTt on the spot in an effort to self-heal.
>>>> While this technique works fine on ruptured skin, inside an artery it
>>>> often is fatal because the clot is likely to break off under hydraulic
>>>> pressure, and shift to a spot where it
>>> totally
>>>> blocks blood flow to vital organs such as heart muscle and the brain.
>>>>
>>>> That L-argenine creates nitric oxide gas in artery walls is established
>>>> without question, and if it is supplied in sufficient quantity, through
>>>> the supply of N O it enables the body to PREVENT the development of
>>>> plaques (atherosclerosis), and where athersclerosis is already present,
>>>> enables the body to SAFELY REMOVE it.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that much of the monitoring of blood make-up is rendered
>>>> irrelevant as soon as L-argenine and nitric oxide step in and control
>>>> athersclerosis. Correct me if my understanding is wrong, but it seems to
>>>> me that if there is no athersclerosis, in most cases there can be no
>>>> heart disease through blocked arteries, and no strokes through blocked
>>>> arteries.
>>>>
>>>> I believe it is that simple.
>>>>
>>>> How did these two doctors arrive at the place of information
>>>> dissemination that each now is at?
>>>>
>>>> Prendergast first, because in some ways his story is more powerful.
>>>>
>>>> He is an MD who is a practicing endocrinologist who also advises/ cares
>>>> for
>>>> hundreds of diabetics. Diabetics typically have a high rate of heart
>>>> disease.
>>>>
>>>> At about the age of 37 years Prendergast submitted to a CAT scan to
>>>> investigate some vague abdominal pain. Subsequently, the technician said
>>>> to him " Hey, you've got other problems here - you have developed
>>>> atherosclerosis to the degree I'd expect to see in an 80-year-old" This
>>>> caught the immediate attention of Prendergast. His own (MD) father had
>>>> had a heart attack at the age of 43 which made him quit working and he
>>>> died a few short years later as a result of it. Prendergast reckoned he
>>>> did not want to follow these particular footsteps ... He was so
>>>> fortunate as to be working close to medical researchers studying
>>>> L-argenine, NO etc, and he arranged to spend a lot of time with them.
>>>>
>>>> As a result of their information, he commenced taking a daily dose of
>>>> laboratory grade L-argenine. HE ALSO PRESCRIBED THIS FOR HIS DIABETIC
>>>> PATIENTS.
>>>>
>>>> Some 16 years later, Prendergast once again had an abdominal CAT scan.
>>>> He had the same technician as he had had 16 years before. The technician
>>>> was amazed. Comparing the scan data 16 years apart, he pointed out that
>>>> Prendergast's arteries were now TOTALLY CLEAR of athersclerosis.
>>>> Prendergast was also amazed, and then went and had a scan done of his
>>>> heart arteries. Totally clear of athersclerosis. He had the arteries of
>>>> a 17-year-old.
>>>>
>>>> During that 16 year period, whereas formerly his diabetic patients
>>>> developed heart disease at such a rate that they kept three heart
>>>> surgeons in business, NONE OF THEM developed heart disease. Five
>>>> thousand (5,000) diabetics in 16 years totally free of athersclerosis.
>>>> All as a consequence of taking L- argenine on a daily basis. BTW, the
>>>> three heart surgeons moved to other locations to practice their craft.
>>>>
>>>> The L-arginine /NO researchers also told Prendergast that although L-
>>>> argenine worked well, he really should also use L-citrulline. Ingestion
>>>> of L- argenine works for ( approx?) 6 hours. L-citrulline lasts for 24 -
>>>> 36 hours, with the same beneficial effect as L-argenine.
>>>>
>>>> Prendergast decided that the best way to help potential sufferers of
>>>> heart disease was to get alongside the best business of its type he
>>>> could find and make a diet supplement incorporating L-argenine,
>>>> L-citrulline as well as other anti-oxidants and vitamins. Hence
>>>> Proargi-9+
>>>>
>>>> This stuff is not patentable. Is there anything wrong with what he did?
>>>> In my opinion, not. He has made an important scientific / medical
>>>> discovery available to all to alleviate premature death and suffering.
>>>> There are few of us in such a position to give effect to such an
>>>> altruistic motive and action. He was true to his Hippocratic oath (
>>>> assuming he took one) and has reached out to help thousands of
>>>> potential heart disease victims.
>>>>
>>>> Esselstyn, who by the way represented the USA in the Olympic games
>>>> (rowing) is an MD who served in the Vietnam war where he performed very
>>>> many autopsies on GIs and also their Vietnamese counterparts. He
>>>> discovered that these young GIs already had advanced athersclerosis,
>>>> whereas the young Vietnamese had none. Esselstyn concluded that living
>>>> on a vegetarian diet was responsible for the difference. He is also well
>>>> aware of the biochemical pathways in the human body which involve
>>>> L-argenine and nitric oxide, and has text and a diagramme in his book
>>>> dealing with this.
>>>>
>>>> He ran an experiment over many years involving ( 18?) heart patients who
>>>> had been sent home by their heart specialists, to die. Their
>>>> atherosclerosis was so bad, and they had been subject to so many
>>>> surgical interventions, that no more were possible.
>>>>
>>>> He put them on a strict vegan diet, had frequent ( weekly - monthly)
>>>> follow- ups, and with his wife developed interesting menus. Over 20
>>>> years not one of that group has died through athersclerosis, whereas the
>>>> control group who decided the diet regime was too tough has thinned out
>>>> a bit now through heart disease.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the active experimental group members have had their
>>>> athersclerosis actually reverse - in other words, minimise or disappear.
>>>>
>>>> What his experiment has shown is that the natural concentration in the
>>>> body of L-argenine is not sufficient to counteract the damage by free
>>>> radicals ( from meat, fat etc) which leads to atherosclerosis.
>>>>
>>>> Esselstyn has chosen to tell the world about his work though the printed
>>>> word, radio programmes, and some videos. Although he must by now have
>>>> heard of Prendergast, I'm not aware of them joining forces in any way.
>>>>
>>>> Well, that's about it. The 10 minute video below is worth watching if
>>>> you haven't done that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqLcblMyIY
>>>>
>>>> Their work is not the stuff of snake oil.
>>>> It's excellent science translated into a form to benefit all mankind.
>>>>
>>>> Brian Swale
>>
>> Brian Swale
>>
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