Brian, we don't agree because our definitions of "science" don't seem to
mesh. I'm not talking about Esselstyn here. Esselstyn has at least
published a paper in 1995 describing his research
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7500065>
Here are the results from the horse's mouth:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
RESULTS:
Of the 22 participants, 5 dropped out within 2 years, and 17 maintained
the diet, 11 of whom completed a mean of 5.5 years of follow-up. All 11
of these participants reduced their cholesterol level from a mean
baseline of 246 mg/dL (6.36 mmol/L) to below 150 mg/dL (3.88 mmol/L).
Lesion analysis by percent stenosis showed that of 25 lesions, 11
regressed and 14 remained stable. Mean arterial stenosis decreased from
53.4% to 46.2% (estimated decrease = 7%; 95% confidence interval [CI],
3.3 to 10.7, P < .05). Analysis by minimal lumen diameter of 25 lesions
found that 6 regressed, 14 remained stable, and 5 progressed. Mean lumen
diameter increased from 1.3 mm to 1.4 mm (estimated increase = 0.08 mm;
95% CI, -0.06 to 0.22, P = NS). Disease was clinically arrested in all
11 participants, and none had new infarctions. Among the 11 remaining
patients after 10 years, six continued the diet and had no further
coronary events, whereas the five dropouts who resumed their prestudy
diet reported 10 coronary events.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not impressed with the results since they indicate that it's very
difficult to adhere to this diet. Despite having Esselstyn himself
supervising their progress only 50% stuck with it for 5.5 years. Six
went as long as 10 years. As I said before, I wouldn't do this even if
the results of this small study have broader applicability. My other
concern is that Esselstyn is totally focused on heart disease. I'm more
focused on staying alive and many studies show that low cholesterol
causes an increase in all-cause mortality.
I wondered how you had come up with the name of Malcolm Kendrick in
association with Esselstyn. Unlike you, I see Kendrick as one of my
heros and not a dangerous person. Searching for the name pair on Google
I found a response from you on Kendrick's web site. You commented to
Kendrick that "Even a “moderate” intake of fat is lethal, and meat has a
similar effect."
That was in response to his reporting of the Norwegian HUNT 2 study
<http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2753.2011.01767.x/pdf>
covering
over 52,000 Norwegians which clearly shows, if anything, that
cholesterol is protective for all-cause mortality and even for CVD with
the exception of a slight increase (for men only) at the highest end of
the range. Kendrick provided you with additional contravening evidence
and asked how you could explain it. Apparently you couldn't except by
ignoring it. If Esselstyn's diet works against heart disease then
that's great for those who choose to follow it. But that's hardly proof
that the rest of the world's diet is poison or that Esselstyn's patients
will live longer than those who don't follow it. It's now 18 years past
the publication of his 22 patient study. These folks were elderly when
the study began. Most of them have probably died by now. Where is the
new paper that proves these folks also beat the odds on cancer,
infectious disease, dementia, diabetes, etc. etc. Perhaps its absence
is telling?
As for Dr. Joe Prendergast, he has apparently never published a
scientific paper describing his work. At least I can't find one at Pub
Med <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/> Now why is that? Science
does not get disseminated through the popular press. It needs to be
more rigorous than that.
Chuck Norcutt
On 4/29/2013 9:19 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
> Chuck wrote
>> Message: 18
>
>> Rather that try to work through all of this again I decided to do a
>> Google search for criticisms of Esselstyn's work. My first hit was even
>> more than that, a criticism of a movie called ?Forks Over Knives? which
>> features not only Esselstyn's work but also several other vegan promoters.
>> <http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a
>> -review-and -critique/>
>>
>> I haven't read the entire thing (it's huge and takes a long time to
>> load) but it's pretty clear from the critique that, at least what's
>> presented in the movie, is pretty *selective* science... you just ignore
>> the inconvenient bits that disagree with your hypothesis. I'd had enough
>> after about 10 pages and there are very many more than that.
>>
>> Chuck Norcutt
>
> I'm sorry, if my last post (below) which I spent more than an hour over to
> summarise in the concise form the science and how people got there isn't
> good enough, then so be it. I'm not perfect - but I'm not doing it again.
>
> It's easy to find nay-sayers on the internet; one of the worst I found is a
> so-
> called Dr. Malcolm Kendrick.
>
> I'm convinced the science is sound, and I do not believe that Prendergast
> and Esselstyn are liars.
>
> To summarise the science as simply as I can, it is this:
>
> It is proven that if you have an adequate supply of L-argenine, and
> preferably also L-citrulline, in your diet, you will never get the usual
> kinds of
> heart attack, angina, or cerebral stroke. These two amino acids will prevent
> athersclerosis from developing. If you are found to already have
> athersclerosis, there is a good chance they can remove it.
>
> "Adequate" depends on whether or not you follow a vegan diet. If you do,
> you should get the above benefits without supplementary supply.
> Alternatively, if you eat a "normal" western civilisation diet the chances are
> (25 : 75 ) that you will benefit from supplementary supply to avoid those
> conditions.
> Finally, because L-argenine and L-citrulline cause the creation in arteries of
> nitric oxide gas which defends against atherosclerosis, for the people whose
> health is so protected, heart by-pass operations, stents, statins,
> measurement of cholesterol etc etc become redundant and un-necessary
> operations. For about 25% of the population this means avoidance of
> premature death and/or severe incapacity.
>
> Having discovered Prendergast, I have given up the vegan diet and take
> one or more capsules of L-argenine per day. It worked for him and his 5,000
> diabetic patients over a 16 year period, so it should work for me.
>
>>
>> On 4/27/2013 2:20 PM, Brian Swale wrote:
>>> With replies from Charlie and Chuck, maybe this ought to be my last
>>> posting on this topic for a while.
>>>
>>> At the outset, I do not believe that, as Nathan put it, what Drs
>>> Prendergast and Esselstyn are disseminating, is snake oil.
>>>
>>> Far from it. This is all serious, science and evidence-based,
>>> information which can be used simply by anybody to prevent / minimise
>>> premature death from athersclerosis and considerable human suffering
>>> where athersclerosis has maimed but not yet killed outright.
>>>
>>> The messages from Drs Esselstyn and Prendergast contain very similar
>>> material, but each arrived at where they are by different routes.
>>>
>>> I believe that each of these men is energised by the ulterior motive of
>>> alleviating and avoiding where possible, human suffering through
>>> athersclerosis in its various forms, and have chosen two vehicles to
>>> make the basis of their findings available to us all.
>>>
>>> Charlie confirmed what I thought all along, having read Esselstyn's book
>>> and attentively listened to and watch Prendergast's short videos.
>>>
>>> This is that myocardial infarction (hope I have the spelling correct),
>>> often the phase of heart disease before death ensues, is caused by the
>>> rupture of a lump of plaque on the inside of an artery. The causes the
>>> body to create a blood CLOTt on the spot in an effort to self-heal.
>>> While this technique works fine on ruptured skin, inside an artery it
>>> often is fatal because the clot is likely to break off under hydraulic
>>> pressure, and shift to a spot where it
>> totally
>>> blocks blood flow to vital organs such as heart muscle and the brain.
>>>
>>> That L-argenine creates nitric oxide gas in artery walls is established
>>> without question, and if it is supplied in sufficient quantity, through
>>> the supply of N O it enables the body to PREVENT the development of
>>> plaques (atherosclerosis), and where athersclerosis is already present,
>>> enables the body to SAFELY REMOVE it.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that much of the monitoring of blood make-up is rendered
>>> irrelevant as soon as L-argenine and nitric oxide step in and control
>>> athersclerosis. Correct me if my understanding is wrong, but it seems to
>>> me that if there is no athersclerosis, in most cases there can be no
>>> heart disease through blocked arteries, and no strokes through blocked
>>> arteries.
>>>
>>> I believe it is that simple.
>>>
>>> How did these two doctors arrive at the place of information
>>> dissemination that each now is at?
>>>
>>> Prendergast first, because in some ways his story is more powerful.
>>>
>>> He is an MD who is a practicing endocrinologist who also advises/ cares
>>> for
>>> hundreds of diabetics. Diabetics typically have a high rate of heart
>>> disease.
>>>
>>> At about the age of 37 years Prendergast submitted to a CAT scan to
>>> investigate some vague abdominal pain. Subsequently, the technician said
>>> to him " Hey, you've got other problems here - you have developed
>>> atherosclerosis to the degree I'd expect to see in an 80-year-old" This
>>> caught the immediate attention of Prendergast. His own (MD) father had
>>> had a heart attack at the age of 43 which made him quit working and he
>>> died a few short years later as a result of it. Prendergast reckoned he
>>> did not want to follow these particular footsteps ... He was so
>>> fortunate as to be working close to medical researchers studying
>>> L-argenine, NO etc, and he arranged to spend a lot of time with them.
>>>
>>> As a result of their information, he commenced taking a daily dose of
>>> laboratory grade L-argenine. HE ALSO PRESCRIBED THIS FOR HIS DIABETIC
>>> PATIENTS.
>>>
>>> Some 16 years later, Prendergast once again had an abdominal CAT scan.
>>> He had the same technician as he had had 16 years before. The technician
>>> was amazed. Comparing the scan data 16 years apart, he pointed out that
>>> Prendergast's arteries were now TOTALLY CLEAR of athersclerosis.
>>> Prendergast was also amazed, and then went and had a scan done of his
>>> heart arteries. Totally clear of athersclerosis. He had the arteries of
>>> a 17-year-old.
>>>
>>> During that 16 year period, whereas formerly his diabetic patients
>>> developed heart disease at such a rate that they kept three heart
>>> surgeons in business, NONE OF THEM developed heart disease. Five
>>> thousand (5,000) diabetics in 16 years totally free of athersclerosis.
>>> All as a consequence of taking L- argenine on a daily basis. BTW, the
>>> three heart surgeons moved to other locations to practice their craft.
>>>
>>> The L-arginine /NO researchers also told Prendergast that although L-
>>> argenine worked well, he really should also use L-citrulline. Ingestion
>>> of L- argenine works for ( approx?) 6 hours. L-citrulline lasts for 24 -
>>> 36 hours, with the same beneficial effect as L-argenine.
>>>
>>> Prendergast decided that the best way to help potential sufferers of
>>> heart disease was to get alongside the best business of its type he
>>> could find and make a diet supplement incorporating L-argenine,
>>> L-citrulline as well as other anti-oxidants and vitamins. Hence
>>> Proargi-9+
>>>
>>> This stuff is not patentable. Is there anything wrong with what he did?
>>> In my opinion, not. He has made an important scientific / medical
>>> discovery available to all to alleviate premature death and suffering.
>>> There are few of us in such a position to give effect to such an
>>> altruistic motive and action. He was true to his Hippocratic oath (
>>> assuming he took one) and has reached out to help thousands of
>>> potential heart disease victims.
>>>
>>> Esselstyn, who by the way represented the USA in the Olympic games
>>> (rowing) is an MD who served in the Vietnam war where he performed very
>>> many autopsies on GIs and also their Vietnamese counterparts. He
>>> discovered that these young GIs already had advanced athersclerosis,
>>> whereas the young Vietnamese had none. Esselstyn concluded that living
>>> on a vegetarian diet was responsible for the difference. He is also well
>>> aware of the biochemical pathways in the human body which involve
>>> L-argenine and nitric oxide, and has text and a diagramme in his book
>>> dealing with this.
>>>
>>> He ran an experiment over many years involving ( 18?) heart patients who
>>> had been sent home by their heart specialists, to die. Their
>>> atherosclerosis was so bad, and they had been subject to so many
>>> surgical interventions, that no more were possible.
>>>
>>> He put them on a strict vegan diet, had frequent ( weekly - monthly)
>>> follow- ups, and with his wife developed interesting menus. Over 20
>>> years not one of that group has died through athersclerosis, whereas the
>>> control group who decided the diet regime was too tough has thinned out
>>> a bit now through heart disease.
>>>
>>> Some of the active experimental group members have had their
>>> athersclerosis actually reverse - in other words, minimise or disappear.
>>>
>>> What his experiment has shown is that the natural concentration in the
>>> body of L-argenine is not sufficient to counteract the damage by free
>>> radicals ( from meat, fat etc) which leads to atherosclerosis.
>>>
>>> Esselstyn has chosen to tell the world about his work though the printed
>>> word, radio programmes, and some videos. Although he must by now have
>>> heard of Prendergast, I'm not aware of them joining forces in any way.
>>>
>>> Well, that's about it. The 10 minute video below is worth watching if
>>> you haven't done that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqLcblMyIY
>>>
>>> Their work is not the stuff of snake oil.
>>> It's excellent science translated into a form to benefit all mankind.
>>>
>>> Brian Swale
>
> Brian Swale
>
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