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Re: [OM] One Big Ass Mistake America

Subject: Re: [OM] One Big Ass Mistake America
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:48:49 -0700
On 6/22/2015 6:37 AM, Bob Whitmire wrote:
I think you're correct in the historical point of view, but I think you
misinterpreted what I said, or at least took a slightly different spin off
it than that which I intended. If you consider the War of the Rebellion, as
it's called up here in Occupied Canada, you extend from New Mexico across
Kansas and Nebraska, to Minnesota and Michigan and all points east, which
is a rather large chunk of the Contiguous 48. If you then add the number of
people who moved even farther west to avoid the unpleasantness, you can see
the war's impact on the entire Lower 48.

Growing up in the San Francisco Bay area, I can understand how the
unpleasantness farther east and long before may not have made an impact on
you. Fair enough. But I can assure you that many of the people who made
their way into that area immediately prior to and during the Civil War were
profoundly aware of it.

And yet, they didn't experience it, and particularly avoided the emotional 
trauma.

But my statement was "You don't have to have roots in Dixie . . ." which I
believe not only to be accurate, but also to encompass rather large areas
of real estate. I don't think I've ever been anywhere in this country, with
the exception of Hawaii and Guam, that I haven't seen a Confederate flag in
one form or another.

You know how a friend gets a new car - and suddenly you see that model everywhere? Weren't there just yesterday, you say to yourself. Maybe that's a difference between us? I'm not sensitized.

The fact is, that flag started as a symbol of racism
and oppression, was briefly diverted into a symbol of something rather
nebulous and foggy that I call Southernness for lack of a better word, and
has now reverted, thanks to contemporary bigots, to its original
symbolism--and has expanded far beyond the borders of the old Confederacy.

Agree

I suspect you'll see it where you don't expect to see it, if you're really
looking, and your travels happen to take you into enclaves of White is
Right folks. (Idaho comes immediately to mind.)

Two summers ago, we drove US95 from Coeur d'Alene up above Bonner's Ferry, US2 SE across the Idaho panhandle into Montana, and returned the same way. We stayed in the Post Falls/Coeur d'Alene area coming and going. Then down US95 to Lewiston and down Idaho 129 into Oregon. That's a fair number of miles through deeply rural Idaho. And yes, I imagine that from where you and I stand many of the residents (outside the large Indian reservation) are White is Right folks, racists and bigots, and so on.

But I didn't notice any instances of the Stars & Bars. "Impeach Obama", "No African 
Presidents", that sort of thing, yes.

But that's beside the point. Racism and bigotry are damned close to
universal, and if folks don't dislike one species of human, they'll dislike
another.

Absolutely! My position was simply an empirical one, that the CSA (battle) flag is not a common symbol with a powerful affect hereabouts. They just use different symbols and catch words most often.

As an aside, the first time I went West on an extended trip, I was
surprised at the prejudice I encountered against Native Americans. I had
always thought the pre-Columbian indigenous peoples of this continent were
rather cool,

All perspective.

Of course, all us soft headed new agers and such swoon when we read/hear quotes from Chief Seattle's letter to the US government, "Chief Seattle, Chief of the Suquamish Indians allegedly wrote to the American Government in the 1800's - In this letter he gave the most profound understanding of God in all Things. Here is his letter, which should be instilled in the hearts and minds of every parent and child in all the Nations of the World: <http://www.barefootsworld.net/seattle.html>" <http://www.barefootsworld.net/seattle.html>

And yet, as on all other continents and islands when first settled (invaded?) by homo sapiens, Chief Seattle's ancestors quickly made extinct all the largest native animals.

and I was surprised to find that others did not hold my point of view.

See, that doesn't surprise me at all. Part of the majority culture Western 
zeitgeist.

True, if I had _really_ thought about it, I would not have made
that mistake. I also was surprised at the depths of bigotry displayed
toward people from Mesoamerica.

From a certain viewpoint, what's the difference, they are all Injuns. (And correct, in a racial way, as the population of the continent, from first entry in the far NW to Tierra del Fuego, was astonishingly rapid.) My late wife was half Mexican, and deeply involved in the Hispanic rights groups.

The situation has changed a great deal vis-à-vis those from South of the Border in many areas where the majority or a large minority of the population is of Hispanic origin. There is still a deep prejudice in many folks, but it no longer can afford to be obvious, what with State, County and City elective offices, management positions, major local businesses, etc. being held by Hispanics.

The middle ground, where kids go to school together, adults intermarry (including in my family), adults work and play together, does seem to me to be growing, leading to decline of and further marginalizing of the haters on both sides.

They weren't part of my experience. As for
people of Asian origins, the degree of prejudice shown them _really_ took
me by surprise. The old laws concerning Asians, particularly Chinese, in
areas such as the one you grew up in, boggled me until I put them into the
context of Southern Apartheid, and then they clarified.

Yup, yup. Very rabid feelings that these were not people.

Another area where things seem to be changing, at least in the big cities, where the more recent generations seem to me to be blending. It's all pretty complex, as there is hatred and bigotry (much predating the US) between and within these very large groups you identify. Japanese-Korean, Japanese-Chinese, All of the above and SE Asians of various sorts, and between them, and so on. There is also prejudice on the part of old line, multi-generational Mexican families* who own major agricultural businesses in the Central Valley against migrant workers and recent immigrants, esp illegals. Quite a few major agribusinesses there are owned by people whose ancestors came from Japan, went through internment (just to mention another act of blind prejudice) and went back to rebuild.

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear the old Confederate battle flag is going to be
resurrected in many places that neither saw nor considered it in the past.


I too hope that you are wrong, but my focus was not on the future, but on my empirical observations in the present and recent past.

It _is_ a powerful symbol of racism and oppression, and should _never_ be 
viewed as anything else.

Again, I agree.

Just yesterday as Joan, Ben and I drove to
Augusta, we passed two houses flying Confederate flags, one with a sign
reading "Stand For Liberty." I would like to have climbed down from the car
and ripped both of them off their poles, but I'm sure that would have
resulted in physical altercations, and my arrest. Unlike Germany and it's
Nazi symbolism, we can't outlaw symbols of the old Confederacy.

On balance, I'm still thinking that's a good thing. Outlawing public freedom of speech doesn't do good greater that the harm. As a voice of reason in the wilderness said recently:
On 6/21/2015 8:13 AM, Ken Norton wrote:
... If you want to change a culture, you have to change the narrative.

And perhaps you agree? "Real impetus to remove that flag is going to have to come from inside, not outside, the state." Just remove the last two words. :-)

But we don't have to mistake them for anything other than what they are.

Next time I go that way, I may try to pull a Chris Crawford and get photos.

I, for one, believe you. As I've said a couple of ways, Maine is in the 
sandbox, just as much as S. Carolina.

PS: I realize some of the above screed is a bit of a non-sequitur rolling
away from your post, and for that I apologize.

No problem here.

For a lot of reasons I won't
go into here because I've gone on long enough, I _really_ don't like that
flag, and am deeply and profoundly offended by its presence on the current
American landscape.

Really? I couldn't tell. ;-)

Multi Prejudicial Moose

* I once had a fellow working for me whose Spanish ancestor came to Calif. in 
1769. Eighth generation, I think he said.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey *IS* what it's all about?
--
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