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Re: [OM] Kodak Chapter 11

Subject: Re: [OM] Kodak Chapter 11
From: Willie Wonka <alienspecimen@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:59:15 -0800 (PST)
We have everything in place to implement the changes right now.

I have been studying Linux and other models very closely and believe that if 
applied to everything in life, we can abolish the monetary system.

So, picture world in which you have stores where everything is free and I mean 
in every store...just sit for a moment and think about it, but please keep in 
mind the Linux model, where people from all over the world contribute to create 
numerous OS which are at least up to par if not better than what the commercial 
industry has to offer...and most of its users do not contribute anything...

Forget about the little people in plain clothes, living in the communes and 
chopping in unison the small plot of land...this is something much bigger than 
that.

Sit on it for couple of days and lets talk when you are done thinking...:)  

Best

Boris 


P.S.  Above statement was addressed to everyone.  Chris, IMHO I think your 
depiction of the Utopian society is very oversimplified...:)






Subject:        Re: [OM] Kodak Chapter 11
From:   "Chris Trask" <christrask@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:   Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:43:12 -0700

    I had to think about this for quite some time.

>
> > Might the problem really have nothing to do with money, in itself, or
> > the mechanisms for allocating resources to balance individual and
> > collective good, but with limitations to human abilities to govern
> > - both themselves and their communities?
>
>
> I'm a huge fan of Star Trek. But one thing that always bugged me was
> how in the future, after some horrid world war, that all of mankind
> realized that working for the collective good was good enough and no
> money was required, no crimes and on and on...
>

    Definitely part of the concept of "Where no man has gone before".

>
> I don't think this is possible because throughout history, almost all
> people have an attitude of "what's in it for me?" Even within the
> realms of employment today, many people won't even bother contributing
> an ounce of effort even with payment.
>

    Many businesses now are nothing more than "managed failure" where the
goal is to make as much income bilking investors without producing anything.

>
> There have been numerous examples of "utopian societies" that formed,
> but never stayed intact because there is always somebody not willing
> to contribute.
>

    Most of the utopian societies of the 19th century failed for one reason
or another.  The only one that remains alive now is the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the LDS or Mormon Church.  But even it has
splinter groups.  LDS survives mostly by way of a very strong central
hierarchy, government if you will.  The Catholic church (aka Church of Rome)
also has a strong hierarchy, but it has even more serious problems.

>
> In a self-governed group where everybody knows each other, resentments
> form pretty quickly. The attitude of "greater good" goes out the window.
>

    Just don't drink the Kool-Aid.

>
> And related to all this is motivation. Some of us are motivated by
> reward (money, recognition, food, etc). Others have no motivation
> whatsoever. You can't pay them too much or too little. Nothing lights
> a fire under them. The concept of greater good is lost on them. The
> concept of self preservation is even lost.
>

    Saw plenty of that before I retired, and a bit more afterwards.

>
> So, how does this future utopian world of Star Trek occur? Is there a
> genetic mutation among all of mankind that directly alters our very
> way of being?
>

    We might use post-WWII as an example of what it takes to motivate a
society into at least the beginnings of utopian culture.  The affluence of
the 1950's overcame people's memories of where they came from and where
they'd been, and the overall sense of a unified purpose of society
diminished.

    Even the Berkely free-speech period could be brought to bear.  That
slowly dissipated after most of those involved discovered that they had to
work to stay alive, then lost sight of their original motivations and
purpose and became blinded by money and affluence.  In the end, their
contribution to society seens to have been the creation of disco.

    The Swiss have suffered a similar niche in history,  About as close to a
long-term utopian society as can be thought of, their greatest contribution
to world culture has been the cuckoo clock.

    In "Utopia", Sir Thomas More describes a society that has developed
through many generations of being disciplined and conditioned into accepting
that each individual is a part of a society where everyone contributes to
that society without the need for overt motivation.

    I should point out the "plain people" religious sects in America that
have survived through the ages, particularly the Amish.  They have survived
by virtue of a common purpose and the overall rejection of modern life, the
latter of which seems to be essential.  They do have problems every so
often, but they are minimal in comparison.

Chris


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