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Re: [OM] 250/2.0, and my changed eyes

Subject: Re: [OM] 250/2.0, and my changed eyes
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:21:54 -0800
Ken Norton wrote:
>> You have a nice understanding woman there.  My first wife seemed to have the 
>> philosophy "we are now one and I am the one".
>>     
>
>
> Better be careful there.  We don't want you to experience the wrath of Moose.
>   

No problem here. His reference was to specific, named personal 
experience, not some generalization to wives in general nor projection 
onto the wife of another who is entirely unknown to the person making 
the projection.

I really hope you can see the difference between John's statement 'My 
first wife seemed to have the philosophy "we are now one and I am the 
one"' and your statement "He may not know when, or how, but she WILL get 
Dawid for that. His day of doom is coming."

Yes, I know you didn't intend any actual comment on Dawid's wife, but 
used her in an attempt at more general humor about wife stereotypes. I 
had dropped this, but as you continue, I appear to be goadable. ---

Ken Norton wrote:
> A Typical Moose wrote:
>
>   
>> I still object to the projection of personal experience and/or stereotype 
>> onto everyone else's wives and partners.
>>     
>
> As has been previously mentioned, stereotypes exist for a reason. 

Actually, for more than one. One is, of course, social shorthand for 
commonly encountred characteristics.

Another, and far more problematic, is to reinforce untrue beliefs used 
to repress groups based on racial, ethnic, gender or other biases.

If you made comments about your cute, stereotypical failings at dancing 
and how they compared to the natural senses of rhythm and movement of 
Blacks who mocked you for them, you'd rightly be chastised for using 
stereotypes to belittle a minority.

How is making  a stereotypical comment/joke about all wives different? 
Do you believe women in our society have reached full equality?

> I know you object to my comment, and yes, attempt at humor was implied. Your 
> sensitivity to this issue is not necessarily representative of the rest of 
> us. 

By us, whom do you mean? You've taken a survey on this list? In Iowa? 
The Nation? The World? Or are you taking your own opinions as generalizable?

> I'm happy for you that you have such a wonderful relationship where you never 
> make mistakes 

Of course I make mistakes. I also apologize, clean up the consequences 
and generally do better going forward. If I disagree with the 
complaints, I make my case. She does the same in the other direction.

> or get the wrath of the CDFO. 

"Wrath?" How Old Testament. Wrath isn't appropriate at any time in any 
intimate relationship, as far as I am concerned.

> But I'm of the more typical marriage relationship 

Data? References? Or are we back to "everybody knows", stereotypes and 
sitcoms?

> where I get "reminded" of the need to pick up my socks, stop leaving camera 
> equipment laying round in the middle of the living-room floor and 
> systematically dispatched for my typical male frailities.
>
> It's not the fault of SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed), as I'm well experienced 
> in being the source of much angst in her life.  :)
>   

Far be it from me to suggest changes in anybody's choices of how to live 
their domestic life. However - should you ever get tired of that way of 
living, you might try acting like a self regulating adult, taking care 
of your own stuff, having compassion for your partner's failings and, 
where there is a true difference of opinion about how two should live 
together, talking it out and finding common ground.

An odd thing I have observed is that when one part of a pair cleans up 
their emotional and behavioral act, their partner often seems to change 
for the better with little or no effort. "He/She is like a changed 
person!" If my partner is repeatedly upset at my behavior, is that her 
fault, mine, or are we both playing out a script inherited from parents 
and/or social stereotypes. If the game isn't enjoyable, why not stop?

In my case, both parties have failings, of various degrees of annoyance 
to the other. I do find it amazing how often what is perceived as a 
failing that upsets the other turns out, upon calm, loving, 
compassionate discussion, to be simple failure to communicate and/or 
understand.

Some things turn out to be just the way someone is, and I can't see 
where endless nagging does any good, either in changing behavior or 
making life pleasant for either party. Both my sons, around the onset of 
adolescence, started dropping clothes, towels, and such on the floor and 
leaving them. I could have just spent the next few years angry and nagging.

Instead, I observed what was happening and talked about it with them. 
Really interesting. It was like these thing simply dropped out of their 
consciousness once they were finished with them, one worse than the 
other. So I decided to sometimes make them pick up particularly big 
messes, but without rancor, let alone wrath. The rest I dealt with 
(single parent at the time). I figured they would either grow out of it 
or go inflict their failing on someone else. In any case, their 
remaining time with me was limited. When the elder returned from a first 
stab at college, I told him that as an adult member of the household, he 
would have to behave differently than before. He understood, made his 
choice, and was gone in a week. His slob ways lasted for a few years. 
Now he's a neat person with daughters to clean up after. :-)

It seemed not unlike the body size thing when they had growth spurts. 
Healthy, well coordinated boys would suddenly be banging into door 
frames, tripping over stuff, etc. What happens is that the body itself 
grows faster than the brain's image of its size. Apparently quite 
common, and thinking back, it happened to me, too. The brain adjusts.

In Carol's case, there are simply a few things I'm happy to live with - 
for as long as possible. For example, empty clear plastic bags in the 
kitchen are simply not in her consciousness. If I ask her if there are 
any there, she looks and sees them. But if she takes produce out of a 
bag, or some such, it just disappears to her. She can nicely clean up 
after I make a meal, everything clean and in its place - except for a 
few scattered bags.  So I take care of them. What's the big deal?

If, as I occasionally do, I am lazy and leave socks and underwear in the 
corner for a couple of days, perhaps because the my hiking boots are 
blocking my hamper, she ignores them and I eventually take care of them. 
I don't mean to suggest that we have all the details worked out. Things 
change, and regular attention to the relationship is necessary.

I guess what I can't understand is why anyone would persist in habits of 
relationship behavior that cause anxiety, stress and unhappiness. Life 
is, or can be, too pleasant a ride to do that, for me.

Moose
-- 
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