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[OM] Re: Viveza ?

Subject: [OM] Re: Viveza ?
From: James R <londonjames@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:06:23 +0100
This sounds very similar to the Adjustment Brush tool in Lightroom 2,  
which has an optional auto-mask function which limits the mask  
selection to similar colo(u)rs. There used to be some videos on the  
Adobe site of the new functions in version two which gave demo of how  
it works. I was impressed enough to watch the video to the end despite  
the annoying presenters. Can't find them now though.

James


On 25 Aug 2008, at 11:22, Moose wrote:

> Fernando Gonzalez Gentile wrote:
>>
>> Wondered if someone here has used Viveza.
>> If not, where could I read some unbiased review on it - I have a  
>> vague idea of having seen a flash demo not long ago ... but I see  
>> too many things everyday ;^)
>>
> That Moose fellow was generally unimpressed back on June 2nd.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Winsor Crosby wrote:
>> One of the tools that cause Nikon owners to pop for Capture NX is
>> control points.  Like Photoshop it uses adjustment layers and masks.
>> Unlike Photoshop those things are completely hidden, unless you want
>> to see them. Instead it allows you to place a control point in your
>> picture on something that needs adjustment, a face in the shadow, for
>> instance. The point has pop out tools for the size of area of
>> influence and sliders for brightness, contrast, and saturation. The
>> selection takes brightness range and color into effect. So for the
>> example of the face you could lighten it and tweak the contrast a bit
>> and only the face would be affected.
>>
> I read about this control point approach in NX before, and it sounded
> interesting. I viewed some of the videos on the Nik site, downloaded  
> the
> trial version and tried it out.
>
> What I found is that the simple examples are slightly disingenuous. In
> order to be simple, smooth and artifact free, the selections are very
> soft edged unless the color/brightness difference is great. The highly
> magnified detail of selection of the red areas in "Precise  
> Selections &
> Enhancements" seems to me particularly misleading. Without control  
> over
> control point (CP) shape or color range, this becomes a smushy tool  
> that
> will undoubtedly work great for some images and be poor for others.
>
> You can see the effect in their PS example for "Adding Depth to an
> Image". When he sets the parameters for the first CP, then expands it,
> the brownish part of the background above the right side of the head  
> is
> affected as well. Once he has scattered control points around the
> background to bring it down, he clicks preview on and off. You can see
> the point above the head pop up along with the intended body parts.
>
> Here's the first image I tried it on:
> <http://www.moosemystic.net/Gallery/tech/Process/Vivenza/Viv_386.htm>
>
> 0 - Original
>
> 1 - The effective mask from a CP on the womans's face. Diameter is  
> just
> about the distance from hairline to chin. Notice how much dark  
> speckling
> there is on  face , indicating areas that will be less or unaffected  
> by
> the adjustments and how broad beyond the face the mask feathers.
>
> 2 - Moving the CP slightly. Notice how greatly this changes the  
> areas of
> the face included.
>
> 3 - A second CP. The woman's top is visually pretty much one color,  
> and
> quite distinct from anything around it. Yet the selection mask picks  
> up
> less of the color as it moves out from center and picks up part of her
> arm and a lot of the chair back.
>
> 4 - The effect of Vivenza. Although it's done a decent job on the  
> face,
> and would be better with practice with the controls, I don't like the
> hot spot effect. I either hae to live with the hot spot or have the
> effects spill further out than I would like.
>
> I intentionally went overboard with the shirt adjustments, to see what
> would happen. It clearly shows the uneven color selection, the  
> effect on
> the chair back and the odd effect around the hair. These problems
> wouldn't be readily apparent, perhaps not at all, with a more subtle
> adjustment. I was trying to learn how it works when pressed. I want to
> know how a tool really works so I can find how best to use it.
>> If you have ever dealt with Photoshop's shadow control and gritted
>> your teeth after doing a judicious lightening of the foreground when
>> you discover the translucency artifact of trees on the skyline you
>> will like a control point's lack of ugly artifacts.
>>
> I don't grit my teeth, I click on a mask, and paint out the effect in
> the areas where I don't want it. Or I may have selected an area and
> created a mask more carefully beforehand. Whether that is easier than
> Vivenza will, I think, depend on practice and the nature of the image.
> The mask approach will give much more control. You can, of course,  
> add a
> mask to a Vivenza layer, but that just seems to me to add complexity
> unnecessarily, at least for me.
>> Nik Software wrote the software for Nikon and they now have their own
>> version as a plug in for Photoshop, Elements and Aperture. It is
>> pricey, $250, but is a very nice tool.
> Wildly overpriced, IMO, at least in this Ver. 1 release. Add the  
> ability
> to control shape (grab and pull shape would be great) and feathering
> tightness of the control area, add control over color breadth selected
> and add a decent LCE effect to the controls, price it at $60, and you
> have a tool I might buy.
>
> A. Testy Moose
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Winsor responded and the Moose answered?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Winsor Crosby wrote:
>> Did you try putting a control point in the area where you saw  
>> spillover?
>>
> I assume you are talking about my example. I didn't go any further, as
> my goal of seeing just how the tool works had been satisfied.  
> Certainly,
> I could have generated a bunch of CPs to do a better job. However, It
> would have been messier and more time consuming than using other  
> tools.
> Selecting the lilac top or the woman's face is a matter of a few
> moments. Less, certainly, at this stage of my experience, than forcing
> Vivenza and considerably more precise.
>
> Winsor Crosby wrote:
>> After looking at your example, I think the problem is that your image
>> appears to be fully corrected by global processing. The control point
>> is used after that, if it is needed. The hot spot or gradient effect
>> is an attempt by the software to blend the correction into an
>> underexposed photo.
>>
> Perhaps pictures are clearer than words. Yes, the global correction  
> does
> a good job. However, bringing the face and hair up a bit makes her  
> more
> effectively the focal point of the image. No particular reason to  
> change
> the lilac, but since I used it to test Viveza's color selection, I  
> used
> PS selection tools to make it a different color, too.
> <http://www.moosemystic.net/Gallery/tech/Process/Vivenza/Viv_386.htm>
>
> To me, especially if you just look at the result, not jumping back and
> forth for a minute, the lighter face looks entirely natural, like the
> actual light from outside on her is a little brighter than it was. You
> can also see how the shirt color is evenly changed, without affecting
> the hair.
>> Sorry I missed your bit about the extra control points when I first
>> read your post. Thanks for your careful analysis. I provides  
>> something
>> to chew on.
> I'm not saying Viveza may not be useful, just not for what I wanted to
> do to this image. It's a powerful new paradigm in concept.  I'll try  
> it
> on some other image problems as I work.
>
>> Could it be it was discussed here before ?
>>
> Perhaps.
>
> Moose
>
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