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Re: [OM] Battery types [was - iPods from Apple]

Subject: Re: [OM] Battery types [was - iPods from Apple]
From: Jez Cunningham <jez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:50:24 +0100
And Amazon quote:

Technical Details

   - The maximum initial voltage on 12-volt max batteries (measured without
   a workload) is 12-volts. Measured under a workload, nominal voltage is 10.8.


Jez

On 20 December 2010 13:48, Jez Cunningham <jez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> It seems the DeWalt "12v" types are sometimes called 10.8v...
> >
> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=dewalt+10.8v&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=13340342462612542219&ei=HFAPTZWRKcWs8QOk9qiDBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q8wIwAA#
> >
> Jez
>
> On 20 December 2010 13:37, Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> Thanks.  I'm not sure what I was looking at before but 5 x 3.6 volts
>> makes a lot more sense for an 18 volt pack.
>>
>> Chuck Norcutt
>>
>>
>> On 12/20/2010 5:55 AM, Tim Hughes wrote:
>> > Chuck, ok I went and checked  the dewalt website this dewalt 18V pack
>> > has 10 smaller size A123 cells , so here they paralleled 5 pairs of
>> > cells to make the pack a little more compact:
>> >
>> http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d886b14708b013d8bdc7af2fbf9af5f6&topic=168.0
>> >
>> >  this 12V dewalt is likely sony lifepo4 cells, but can't be sure, no
>> > label:
>> >
>> http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d886b14708b013d8bdc7af2fbf9af5f6&topic=387.0
>> >
>> >  The rc model groups have reallly good information on
>> > dissecting/using the dewalt nano-packs for other purposes.Including
>> > 10min charging, abusive cycling etc.
>> >
>> > Tim Hughes
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Tim Hughes<timhughes@xxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Tim Hughes<timhughes@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [OM] Battery
>> >> types [was - iPods from Apple] To: "Olympus Camera
>> >> Discussion"<olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Monday, December 20,
>> >> 2010, 1:57 AM Chuck, I am not sure which of packs you are looking
>> >> at, as the dewalt line includes many types NiCd (old) ,NiMh,LiFePO4
>> >> (A123) and I believes some other technology Li-ion cells now too
>> >> (maybe Sony) in its cheaper Li line. The website is quite good
>> >> because it identifies cells used in quite a few vendors products.
>> >>
>> >> The VPX line from Black and decker use A123 nano-cells, but it is a
>> >> smaller size 1.1Ah cells.
>> >>
>> >> At the 18V pack level I believe you can use both the NiMH packs or
>> >> the LiFePO4 packs interchangeably in the 18V Dewalt tools and they
>> >> even have multifunction intelligent chargers that handle both
>> >> types.
>> >>
>> >> I seem to remember they have a lightweight Li pack and a heavy
>> >> weight pack at 18V one using 5x 2.3Ah cells and one using 5x 1.1Ah
>> >> cells. here are cell specs, download data sheet:
>> >> http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products  the 2.3Ah cell is model
>> >> 26650
>> >>
>> >> The Dewalt 36V 2.2Ah  packs are the most popular for dissection or
>> >> use in electric scooters etc. These contain 10 cells. Typically you
>> >> can get them new for ~$100 off ebay with patience. If you short the
>> >> cell while dissembling, you can literally vaporize the thick metal
>> >> tab. The actual voltage per cell averages more like ~3.3V . So an
>> >> 18V pack is actually about 16.5V in use, but due to the low
>> >> impedance is more constant under heavy load than say a NiMh.
>> >>
>> >> Just off charge the cells are about 3.55V or just under 18V for
>> >> pack. The common lithium ion etc batteries in laptops are just
>> >> under 4.2V coming off charge, but average a bit higher voltage than
>> >> LiFePO4,something like 3.5V or even 3.6 depending on particular
>> >> chemistry.  The energy density advantage of regular Li-cells, even
>> >> at low rates, soon fades as the cells automatically lose ~20% pa if
>> >> kept fully charged and lose even more when cycled. Cycle life is 5
>> >> to 10 times worse and self discharge is much higher for Li-Co
>> >> laptop type cells.
>> >>
>> >> Tim Hughes
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Chuck Norcutt<chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Chuck Norcutt<chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re:
>> >>> [OM] Battery types [was - iPods from
>> >> Apple]
>> >>> To: "Olympus Camera Discussion"<olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date:
>> >>> Sunday, December 19, 2010, 6:24 AM Interesting.  But I was
>> >>> confused by the DeWalt link which appears to show a 12 volt
>> >>> battery with 3 cells and an 18 volt
>> >> battery
>> >>> with 6 cells. Aren't all of these rechargeable lithium
>> >> chemistries
>> >>> nominally 3.2 volts/cell?
>> >>>
>> >>> Chuck Norcutt
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 12/19/2010 3:22 AM, Hughes wrote:
>> >>>> Chuck, The Newer LiFePO4 are truly outstanding,
>> >>> particularly the
>> >>>> "nano-technology" ones (A123), although the new
>> >> Sony
>> >>> ones are a
>> >>>> cheaper and reasonable alternative now apearing,
>> >> but
>> >>> not as high peak
>> >>>> power.  Dewalt unfortunately charges a hefty
>> >>> premium for A123, but
>> >>>> they are really worth it for high power
>> >> professional
>> >>> tools. You can
>> >>>> get battery operated saws for example, as
>> >> powerful as
>> >>> line operated
>> >>>> ones (1.5Hp). Black and Decker consumer VPX
>> >> series,
>> >>> also use A123
>> >>>> cells for small devices.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> These have very Low self discaharge,very high
>> >> peak
>> >>> power, not as high
>> >>>> energy density, but unlike normal Li-ion/poly
>> >> they
>> >>> will maintain
>> >>>> power for years of abuse. I converted my Metz
>> >> CT60
>> >>> flashes to use
>> >>>> them, and cut the weight to less than that of
>> >> smaller
>> >>> Oly CT45 for a
>> >>>> more powerful 200J portable flash, with a larger
>> >>> number of flashes
>> >>>> too. Recharge in less than an hour.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you are into tinkering the small VPX packs are
>> >> easy
>> >>> to convert for
>> >>>> use in lots of different equipment and can be
>> >> bought
>> >>> on ebay, at
>> >>>> lower prices. I have a number of old small
>> >>> screwdrivers,drills etc
>> >>>> converted to use them. Just don't drain them
>> >> right
>> >>> down, keep a
>> >>>> couple of packs and swap at first sign of
>> >> slacking and
>> >>> they will last
>> >>>> and last. Some of the LiFePO4 packs now have
>> >>> reasonable warrantys
>> >>>> 2+years.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To see how powerful and relatively abuse proof
>> >> the
>> >>> A123 cells are, go
>> >>>> and read the RC helicopter websites where they
>> >> abuse
>> >>> these cells
>> >>>> getting>250W from each large c-cell and then
>> >>> recharging them in
>> >>>> ~20minutes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This website has lots of info on the cells used
>> >> in
>> >>> different power
>> >>>> tools mainly dewalt, but includes others:
>> >>>>
>> http://dewaltownersgroup.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d886b14708b013d8bdc7af2fbf9af5f6&board=26.0
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> Lots of people buy LiFePO4 cell drill/saw
>> >> packs
>> >>> for modifying, for
>> >>>> all sorts of high power applications off of ebay.
>> >> This
>> >>> is often the
>> >>>> cheapest way to get them if you want to convert
>> >> your
>> >>> old high power
>> >>>> battery tools.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tim Hughes
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --- On Thu, 12/16/10, Bill Pearce<bs.pearce@xxxxxxx>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> From: Bill Pearce<bs.pearce@xxxxxxx>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [OM] Battery
>> >>>>> types [was - iPods from Apple] To: "'Olympus
>> >>> Camera
>> >>>>> Discussion'"<olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> Date: Thursday, December
>> >>>>> 16, 2010, 2:02 PM I recently got a powered
>> >>> screwdriver, a Bosch. It
>> >>>>> says it has NiMH. It holds a charge for a
>> >> really
>> >>> long time and
>> >>>>> lasts forever.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> From: Chuck Norcutt [mailto:chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:57 PM
>> >> To:
>> >>> Olympus Camera
>> >>>>> Discussion Subject: Re: [OM] Battery types
>> >> [was -
>> >>> iPods from
>> >>>>> Apple]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think the perseverance of NiCd cells in
>> >> certain
>> >>> applications is
>> >>>>> readily understandable in terms of the rate
>> >> of
>> >>> self discharge.
>> >>>>> NiCd cells (until recently) have had much
>> >> lower
>> >>> self discharge
>> >>>>> rates than NiMH cells.  NiCD persists for a
>> >>> walkie-talkie or
>> >>>>> portable drill since you haven't been able
>> >> to
>> >>> count on an NiMH
>> >>>>> powered device to have any charge left if
>> >> you
>> >>> haven't used it in
>> >>>>> 3-6 months.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But that all started to change recently.
>> >> You
>> >>> may recall the
>> >>>>> announcement posted here the other day by
>> >> Tim
>> >>> Hughes concerning
>> >>>>> three new types of NiMH batteries from Sanyo
>> >>> Eneloop.  The newest
>> >>>>> cells promise 75% power after 3 years sitting
>> >> on
>> >>> the shelf. That's
>> >>>>> probably better than NiCd, maybe even much
>> >>> better.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Also, I note that drill drivers are starting
>> >> to
>> >>> show up that have
>> >>>>> lithium-ion batteries.  The last I noticed
>> >>> they were expensive
>> >>>>> enough that I wasn't willing to replace my
>> >> own
>> >>> NiCD powered drill
>> >>>>> but the next power tool purchase could be
>> >>> something different.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Chuck Norcutt
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 12/16/2010 12:54 PM, Jan Steinman wrote:
>> >>>>>>> From: Moose<olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 12/15/2010 11:00 AM, Jan Steinman
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Although it's open on my desktop,
>> >> I've
>> >>> not
>> >>>>> looked at the
>> >>>>>>>> BatteryUniversity.com site yet,
>> >> but
>> >>> my
>> >>>>> understanding of classic
>> >>>>>>>> NiCd is that repeated incomplete
>> >>> discharging
>> >>>>> to about the same
>> >>>>>>>> level causes a crystalline
>> >> precipitate
>> >>> to form
>> >>>>> at a certain
>> >>>>>>>> location related to the
>> >> discharge
>> >>> depth,
>> >>>>> therefore causing the
>> >>>>>>>> mis-named "memory effect." (It
>> >> should
>> >>> really
>> >>>>> be called the
>> >>>>>>>> "forget effect." :-)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Memory effect is not a problem
>> >> when
>> >>> the cell
>> >>>>> is repeatedly
>> >>>>>>>> discharged to different levels.
>> >>> Classic case:
>> >>>>> a cop runs a
>> >>>>>>>> walkie-talkie for eight hours a
>> >> day
>> >>> and drops
>> >>>>> it in the charger
>> >>>>>>>> overnight -- bad news for NiCd
>> >> cell
>> >>> life. But
>> >>>>> memory effect is
>> >>>>>>>> not likely if you're using a
>> >> flash or
>> >>> motor
>> >>>>> drive for various
>> >>>>>>>> periods of time and then topping
>> >> off
>> >>> on a
>> >>>>> charger.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> "Among rechargeable batteries,
>> >>> nickel-cadmium
>> >>>>> remains a popular
>> >>>>>>> choice for two-way radios,"
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Since what you say here doesn't agree
>> >> with
>> >>> what's
>> >>>>> on that site,
>> >>>>>>> perhaps you might read it and resolve
>> >> the
>> >>>>> differences.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yea, I'll have to check that out, because
>> >> it
>> >>> doesn't
>> >>>>> go along with my
>> >>>>>> experience as a ham-radio operator, my
>> >> work as
>> >>> a
>> >>>>> repair tech in a
>> >>>>>> two-way communications shop, nor my stint
>> >> as
>> >>> an RF
>> >>>>> engineer.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I don't know of any hams who still use
>> >> NiCd
>> >>> cells in
>> >>>>> their two-way
>> >>>>>> radios, but note that the OEM battery
>> >> packs
>> >>> you get
>> >>>>> from Icom for
>> >>>>>> older radios still have them. Perhaps its
>> >> just
>> >>> because
>> >>>>> NiCd's are
>> >>>>>> still cheaper. (New hand-held ham gear
>> >> is
>> >>> almost all
>> >>>>> lithium
>> >>>>>> powered.)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> NiCds do have lower internal resistance
>> >> than
>> >>> NiMH,
>> >>>>> which might make
>> >>>>>> them preferable in high-current
>> >> applications
>> >>> -- like
>> >>>>> photo strobes.
>> >>>>>> But that wouldn't explain hand-held
>> >> radios,
>> >>> which have
>> >>>>> relatively
>> >>>>>> moderate current needs. And if they're so
>> >> good
>> >>> for
>> >>>>> hand-helds, why
>> >>>>>> don't you ever see them in cell phones?
>> >>> Puzzle.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> But such fun has to wait. I have to go
>> >> pick up
>> >>> a buck
>> >>>>> to romance our
>> >>>>>> four Nubian goats today.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Obligatory camera content: I need to take
>> >> some
>> >>> photos
>> >>>>> of our
>> >>>>>> zero-mile raw goat milk ice cream... if
>> >>> there's any
>> >>>>> left...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ---------------- Religions are the great
>> >> fairy
>> >>> tales
>> >>>>> of conscience.
>> >>>>>> -- George Santayana :::: Jan Steinman,
>> >>> EcoReality
>> >>>>> Co-op ::::
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >> _________________________________________________________________
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>> >>>>> Archives:
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _____
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> No virus found in this message. Checked by
>> >> AVG -
>> >>> www.avg.com
>> >>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3319
>> >> -
>> >>> Release Date:
>> >>>>> 12/16/10
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >> _________________________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Options:
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>> >>>>>
>> >>> --
>> >>>
>> >> _________________________________________________________________
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>> >>> Archives:
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>> >>>
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>> >>
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>> Options: http://lists.thomasclausen.net/mailman/listinfo/olympus
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>>
>
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