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Re: [OM] question for Dr. Battery

Subject: Re: [OM] question for Dr. Battery
From: Tim Hughes <timhughes@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 03:04:49 -0800 (PST)
Here is another  vendor selling LSD (low self disch) cells:  AccuEvolution 
selling "AccuLoop" cells :
http://www.accupower-usa.com/User/AcculoopAP.aspx?PCID=1

This website is good in that it has actual spec sheets. At a quick look the 
cells are not high rate cells with fairly high internal resistance. Also the 
self discharge rate is a little higher.

I don't know, but this looks suspiciously like a generic LSD design,  marketed 
under a name similar to Eneloop, to cash in on good name recognition.   
 
 It is instructive to compare regular NiMHcell from this vendor to their LSD 
cells. The Acculoop has an enormous 50% higher internal resistance than regular 
cell !  
 
At a guess this probably means the main change to get the cell to be LSD, is to 
use thicker seperator.

tim Hughes

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Tim Hughes <timhughes@xxxxxxxx> wrote:


From: Tim Hughes <timhughes@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [OM] question for Dr. Battery
To: "Olympus Camera Discussion" <olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 10:23 PM


This website has some limited tests on various Eneloop competitors including 
the Sony and duracell cells. 

As Chuck mentioned, apparently Duracell has gone to Chinese made cells now.

http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/low_self_discharge.html

These tests do not compare high rate capacity, but even at these rates the 
Eneloops  demonstrate lower internal resistance/higher voltage as demonstrated 
by the mWh being a bit higher than the competitors. 
So we might guess the Eneloops would have a bigger advantage at high discharge 
rates in comparison to competitors in this group.

tim Hughes



--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [OM] question for Dr. Battery
To: "Olympus Camera Discussion" <olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 12:36 PM

Maybe there are two sets of Duracell specs.  The scuttlebutt I found on 
the web said Duracell was sourcing from Sanyo with Japanese made cells 
but also from China.  What I found was only from China.  However, the 
capacity still matched that of Eneloop at 2000 mah.

Chuck Norcutt


Tim Hughes wrote:
> The Eneloops are generally the best that I have looked at, because
> they are rated to deliver a higher current  than the competition's
> cells.
> 
> EverReady has just come out with some precharged low self discharge
> cells, but I have not got my hands on them or seen full data sheets.
> I believe Sony has also come out with some, but again I have not seen
> specs or evaluated.   I have not looked at Duracell specs either.
> These are credible vendors , so if somebody wants to search web for
> data sheets and post urls, I will be happy to compare specs.
> 
> Some of the Chinese generics are much lower current rated and have
> higher internal resistance (voltage drops more with increase current)
> and some have higher self discharge and also spec smaller # of
> cycles, so not as good.   Rayovac, Hybrio,Ultralife etc all seem  not
> as good as Eneloops.
> 
> Remember deep discharging these cells, is exactly like doing that to
> regular NiMh and it will likely greatly shorten life.  Particularly
> in a long string of cells where the weakest cell then gets reverse
> charged and damaged by venting.
> 
> Tim hughes
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [OM]
> question for Dr. Battery To: "Olympus Camera Discussion"
> <olympus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 4:40 AM
> 
> I'll second Moose's opinion on the batteries and would also recommend
> a charger that handles each cell individually.  I have a couple of
> Maha chargers that charge 4 cells in pairs.  That's better than
> charging all four at once but, as some of my older NiMH batteries
> aged and started to fail, I would discover that a pair would be
> extremely slow to charge or never reach full charge at all.  Trying
> to discover the bad cell means mixing different pairs until you
> narrow down on the culprit.  On the other hand, given the high price
> of single cell chargers and the low price of NiMH batteries it might
> possibly make more sense to replace all the batteries of a given
> purchase group when one gives an indication of being weak.  When I
> buy rechargeable batteries I mark them in groups with a ring of
> colored tape to identify them as part of a group based on when they
> were purchased.  When I use the batteries I use all of the same
> group. If I had a group of 8 that were two years old and one was 
> giving signs of weakness I'd have no qualms about trashing all 8
> since the other 7 are probably not far behind.
> 
> As to low discharge NiMH I also highly recommend Sanyo Eneloop.  I've
>  been using 8 of them for a couple years.  All 8 still charge up
> equally and still provide plenty of power in a flash the only gets
> used maybe once every 3 to 4 months or even longer.  For heavy duty
> shooting I'd more likely buy the highest capacity NiMH I could find
> (are they at 2700 mah now?) and charge them just before the event.
> That is, if I was shooting a wedding with NiMH batteries.
> Personally, I would more likely use my high voltage lead acid battery
> packs for shooting a wedding. NiMH have plenty of capacity but can't
> recycle a flash from a full dump in 1.5 seconds.  This is like a
> Quantum Turbo battery at 1/3 the price. 
> <http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/294330-REG/SP_Systems_SPDCBPRC_Power_Pack_for_SP.html>
> 
> 
> I recently added a set of 4 Duracell low discharge NiMH to my
> Eneloops. I wanted another set of Eneloops but there is no place
> where I can buy them locally and I needed them in a couple of days.
> A search of the web told me that Duracell low discharge NiMH were
> actually rebranded Eneloops... at least the ones made in Japan.  I
> located some Duracell 2000 mah (same as Eneloop) at Home Depot but
> they're made in China, not Japan.  So I don't know what I've got
> although they're working fine so far.  But I've only had them for a
> few months.  I'll give another report in a couple of years.  :-)
> 
> Chuck Norcutt
> 
> 
> Moose wrote:
>> Sue Pearce wrote:
>>> What's the latest on rechargable AA batteries for shoe mount
>>> strobes? I went to the Thomas Dist. site and found a Maha charger
>>> and "low discharge" NiMH batteries that I think I remember from a
>>> previous discussion.
>>> 
>>> But that was at least a year ago. What's the latest?
>>> 
>> I've been very happy with the eneloops I bought and a combo of the
>>  charger that came with some of them and a Lacrosse Technology
>> BC-700U charger. The Sanyo charger works fine, but with pairs only,
>> and I use them in some devices that use one or three cells. The
>> Lacrosse charger has full charge info and control individually for
>> each of up to four cells.
>> 
>> Other makers, both name and generic brands, have come out with
>> similar sounding batteries. Whether they are as good as the
>> eneloops, I don't know. Better, I'd bet not. I haven't kept up,
>> 'cause I'm not in the market.
>> 
>> I very seldom use flash, so I know little about how they fare in
>> that use. The one time I used a set in the 540EZ for an event, they
>> breezed through. They are certainly great for everything I've tried
>> them in. I think that the use where they wouldn't be best is really
>> heavy flash use where batteries can be fully charged the night
>> before and maximum flashes per charge is needed.
>> 
>> There, one would go with the highest capacity normal NiMh batteries
>>  available. I read, although I'm not sure where in my initial
>> research, thta the highest capacity cells also have a fairly fast
>> drop off in usable capacity with heavy use. Still, out of the
>> budget for a major pro shoot, one could simply replace them
>> regularly.
>> 
>> Moose
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