Olympus-OM
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [OM] FW: [OT] - till and until grammAr question (was grammer)

Subject: Re: [OM] FW: [OT] - till and until grammAr question (was grammer)
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:25:43 -0700
On 3/18/2011 2:11 PM, Andrew Fildes wrote:
> The discussion I remember from some years ago was raised by Barbara Thering I 
> think and claimed that the word normally translated from the Aramaic into 
> Greek as 'virgin' was the word in Aramaic that simply meant an unmarried 
> woman. That had some much more interesting implications as the lady in 
> question was apparently ripe in one context and unripe in another.

Ms. Thiering is correct in her interpretation that the Aramaic word in the New 
Testament most likely translated, whether 
from written material or in the head of a speaker of both languages, and later 
translated from Greek to English as 
'virgin' in no way says anything about whether the person referred to had ever 
had sex or not. She appears not to be 
correct that the word means an unmarried woman.

"it is clear that this Semitic term corresponds with the Arabic *^x. and the 
Aramaic IVuNs means simply in the masculine 
form a /young man /married or unmarried, and, in its feminine form, a /young 
woman /married or unmarried."
     -A. Mingana, in Exp. Times, XXVI (May, 1915), 379. 'Die altt. Lit., p. 
264, quoted in The American journal of 
Semitic languages and literatures, Volume 35, p. 218

 From that, it would follow that the virgin Mary was, in the language of her 
times and which she spoke*, simply a young 
woman. However, in the context of the Gospel stories, and the angels' chats 
with Mary and Joseph, for a believer, and 
especially for a believer in inerrancy, reading into them that she was a virgin 
in the English meaning of the word, is 
not unreasonable. It just isn't supported by the linguistic evidence of the one 
descriptive word.

Arguing with believers about 'virgin birth' seems to me a fools game that pulls 
both sides away from the true spiritual 
material at hand. The Bible is chock full of stuff like that.

I wouldn't want to be associated with most of Ms. Thiering's ideas. Much of it 
appears to raise and fight battles over 
issues that are of little or no consequence to me. I have enough ideas that are 
controversial in the context mainstream 
Christianity that I don't need to borrow someone else's controversies. :-)   
The Dean of the seminary of the tiny, quite 
liberal, denomination at one of whose small congregations I give a message or 
sermon once a month saw fit to 
figuratively beat me about the head and shoulders a bit a few weeks ago over 
straying too far from his views. Didn't 
work. They may throw me out, but I won't speak someone else's words, with which 
I disagree, and pretend they are my own.

I find Neil Douglas-Klotz's exploration of the Aramaic origins of the Gospels 
fascinating as insight into the 
differences between the ground of understanding of spiritual matters by the 
Jewish people of the time of Jesus and those 
both in the translations that have come down to us and in the traditions and 
beliefs that grew up later in the Christian 
churches.

For example, Augustine of Hippo's invention of original sin was pure 
organizational and theological genius. As a basis 
for developing an authoritarian, hierarchical church that stands completely 
between it's members and their God, and 
mediates their salvation, it's hard to imagine a better idea. I'm sure 
Christian theologians all over the world at his 
time slapped themselves in the forehead; "Why didn't I think of that???" On the 
other hand, it's quite antithetical to 
the Jewish beliefs Jesus grew up with and the things he taught.

Paul was not Jewish, was not steeped in that same tradition and wrote in Greek. 
Even in the epistles scholars are sure 
were written directly by him, so soon after Jesus' death, one can already see a 
difference from the underlying spiritual 
tradition apparent in the sayings attributed directly to Jesus in both the 
canonical gospels and the so called 'gnostic 
gospels' and other materials discovered in the last century.

Preachin' Moose

* She would not, of course, been literate, or have been allowed education in 
any other languages.
-- 
_________________________________________________________________
Options: http://lists.thomasclausen.net/mailman/listinfo/olympus
Archives: http://lists.thomasclausen.net/mailman/private/olympus/
Themed Olympus Photo Exhibition: http://www.tope.nl/

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>
Sponsored by Tako
Impressum | Datenschutz